Hagemann, Ha ald; Hein, Eckha d; K äme , Hagen
A icle
'I is no enough o do aining in highly demanding ma hema ical
economic modelling o econome ics o become a good economis ':
In e iew wi h Ha ald Hagemann
Eu opean Jou nal o Economics and Economic Policies: In e en ion (EJEEP)
P o ided in Coope a ion wi h:
Edwa d Elga Publishing
Sugges ed Ci a ion: Hagemann, Ha ald; Hein, Eckha d; K äme , Hagen (2025) : 'I is no enough o
do aining in highly demanding ma hema ical economic modelling o econome ics o become a
good economis ': In e iew wi h Ha ald Hagemann, Eu opean Jou nal o Economics and Economic
Policies: In e en ion (EJEEP), ISSN 2052-7772, Edwa d Elga Publishing, Chel enham, Vol. 22, Iss. 3,
pp. 289-297,
h ps://doi.o g/10.4337/ejeep.2025.0157
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Eu opean Jou nal o Economics and Economic Policies: In e en ion, Vol. 22 No. 3, 2025, pp. 289–297
Fi s published online: Augus 2025; doi: 10.4337/ejeep.2025.0157
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In e iew
This is an open access wo k
G ow h models, g ow h s a egies, and powe
blocs in Tu key and Egyp in he wen y- i s
cen u y
Ali Rıza Güngen
Social Sciences, Columbia College, Canada
Ümi Akçay
Ins i u e o In e na ional Poli ical Economy, Be lin School o Economics and Law, Be lin, Ge many
Uemi .Akcay@hw -be lin.de
Analysis o he g ow h pa e ns in he Global Sou h in he wen y- i s cen u y sugges s he e is oom
o au ho i a ian s a es o sea ch o new g ow h models. Au ho i a ian s a es, such as Tu key and
Egyp , bene i ed om global inancial ci cums ances in he ea ly 2000s and expe ienced shi s in
g ow h s a egies in he 2010s, supp essing poli ical space u he . Ou main esea ch ques ion,
hus, is ocusing on wha he main domes ic poli ical economy causes o hese g ow h s a egy and
model changes a e. To explain he changes in g ow h s a egies and models amid he s eng h o ein-
o ced au ho i a ian egimes in hese wo coun ies, we employ a hyb id esea ch s a egy, ying
g ow h model changes o con lic s wi hin he powe bloc. We a gue ha in he mid- o-la e
2010s, pe iphe al goods p oduce s gained he uppe hand in Tu key, while a mili a y akeo e in
Egyp was ollowed by he p omo ion o expo s and new in es men s. We also con end ha powe
bloc econ igu a ions in he las decade and he ise o new g ow h s a egies bo h in Tu key and in
Egyp aimed o change p e ious domes ic demand-led demand and g ow h models.
Keywo ds: compa a i e poli ical economy, g ow h models, g ow h s a egies, Tu key, Egyp
JEL codes: B52, E65, E66, F43, O43, P52
1 INTRODUCTION
Au ho i a ian s a es in Tu key and Egyp eju ena ed hemsel es in he 2010s. This was a
de elopmen con a y o he widesp ead expec a ion ha when aced wi h deep economic
c ises and b ewing social discon en , au ho i a ian egimes a e less likely o main ain hei
powe . This s udy elabo a es on he g ow h models o Tu key and Egyp in he wen y-
i s cen u y. Despi e signi ican di e ences ega ding expo capaci y and mac oeconomic
indica o s, poli ical economic de elopmen s con e ge in a ious aspec s in hese wo coun-
ies. Mo eo e , he au ho i a ian egimes in bo h Tu key and Egyp main ained hei
powe while inc easingly supp essing he poli ical space in he 2010s (Tuğal 2016). We
desc ibe au ho i a ianism as a se o p ac ices ha isola es key policy-making p ocesses
om democ a ic o e sigh and excludes la ge g oups such as wo king classes, e hnic mino-
i ies o subal e n g oups om ins i u ional poli ics (Salgado 2022). F om a c i ical poli-
ical economy pe spec i e, au ho i a ian p ac ices canno be concei ed as clea ly cu om
Resea ch A icle
This isan open access wo k
Recei ed 8 Decembe 2022, accep ed 7 No embe 2023
Eu opean Jou nal o Economics and Economic Policies: In e en ion, Vol. 21 No. 1, 2024, pp. 151–171
Fi s published online: Ap il 2024; doi: 10.4337/ejeep.2024.01.09
Jou nal compila ion © 2024 Edwa d Elga Publishing L d
© 2024 The Au ho
‘I is no enough o do
aining in highly demanding
ma hema ical economic
modelling o econome ics o
become a good economis ’
In e iew wi h Ha ald Hagemann
Ha ald Hagemann, bo n 1947, is a P o esso eme i us o Economic Theo y a he
Uni e si y o Hohenheim, S u ga , Ge many. He ecei ed his diploma and doc o al
deg ees om he Uni e si y o Kiel, and he o me ly augh a he Uni e si y o Kiel, he
F ee Uni e si y o Be lin and he Uni e si y o B emen. He was also a Visi ing P o esso
a se e al in e na ional uni e si ies. He is a Li e Membe o Cla e Hall, Uni e si y o
Camb idge, and in 1999/2000, he was he Theodo Heuss P o esso a he G adua e
Facul y o Poli ical and Social Sciences o he New School o Social Resea ch, New
Yo k. He was he P esiden o he Eu opean Socie y o he His o y o Economic Though
om 2010 o 2012 and he Chai man o he Ge man Keynes Socie y om 2013 o 2019,
and he has been on he edi o ial boa ds o se e al jou nals. His esea ch has ocused
on he heo y o capi al, s uc u al change and employmen , and he his o y o economic
hough , and he e in pa icula on Ge man-speaking émig é economis s du ing he Nazi
pe iod. He ecei ed a es sch i in 2012 (K äme e al. 2012).
How did you s a s udying economics? Wha was he mo i a ion? How did you ge in ouch
wi h he e odox economics, and wha we e he i s s eps in you academic ca ee ?
I hink om he e y beginning I had also a poli ical mo i a ion in s udying economics.
The main eason was ha he G ea Dep ession wi h mo e han six million unemployed
people was one o he decisi e causes why he Nazis came o powe in Ge many. The e
we e some o he easons, bu he causes o his high unemploymen in 1931/1932 and he
poli ical consequences s imula ed my in e es .
I was lucky ha I s udied in Kiel, my home own, whe e economics a ha ime
was one o he leading depa men s in Ge many wi h a high in e na ional o ien a ion.
Ge many was a la ecome in Keynesian economic policy, which basically s a ed wi h
Ka l Schille , when he Social Democ a ic Pa y en e ed he go e nmen in Decembe
1966 a he backg ound o a ecession. Bu in economic heo y a uni e si ies, i was
al eady in he ea ly 1950s ha E ich Schneide in oduced Keynesianism in his ex books
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(Schneide 1947-1952), which domina ed o abou wo decades in Ge many. Schneide ’s
Keynesianism was mo e o he neoclassical syn hesis ype – like Hicks and Samuelson –
bu wi h a s ong Scandina ian la ou . Schneide was a leading igu e no only in each-
ing economics a he Uni e si y o Kiel bu also as long- ime chai man o he Theo e ical
Commi ee o he Ve ein ü Socialpoli ik (Ge man Economic Associa ion) and as di ec-
o o he Kiel Ins i u e o Wo ld Economics in he 1960s. Jü gen K ompha d , who in
2003 ook he ini ia i e o ound he Ge man Keynes Socie y, did his PhD wi h Schneide
in 1957.
Schneide e i ed in 1968/1969, and he had wo successo s. As di ec o o he Kiel
Ins i u e, He be Gie sch came, who was he leading igu e o he neoclassical o ien a-
ion in Ge man economic policy. Bu Gie sch go a chai o economic policy, and no ,
as Schneide had i , o economic heo y. The successo o E ich Schneide in economic
heo y was Albe Jeck, who came om Munich, whe e he was a s uden o E ich P eise ,
who was open-minded o Keynesianism and had a s ong in e es in issues o income and
weal h dis ibu ion.
Toge he wi h Heinz Ku z, who came wi h Jeck om Munich, I became an assis an
and doc o al s uden o Albe . Tha was he beginning o my academic ca ee . Among he
g ea es deba es a he ime we e he Camb idge–Camb idge con o e sies in he heo y o
capi al. Capi al heo y became he cen al opic o he PhD heses o Heinz and me. Heinz
g adua ed in 1975 on S a a (Ku z 1977), and I deal wi h he Solow–Pasine i con o-
e sy on he a e o e u n on capi al and g adua ed in 1977 (Hagemann 1977). The e o e,
Pasine i om he e y beginning had a s ong in luence on my wo k.
Al eady in Kiel, pa icula ly Heinz and I de eloped close con ac s o Camb idge, UK.
In 1977, we had Luigi Pasine i and Joan Robinson o abou en days in Kiel. Pasine i
ga e a se ies o ou s anding lec u es, and a ound Joan Robinson’s isi , we o ganised a
esea ch wo kshop ha was a ended by many o he economis s om ou side, such as
Be am Sche old. Nicholas Kaldo ’s s o y is a li le bi mo e complex, bu he came o Kiel
a yea la e (Hagemann 2012a). In Oc obe 1987, I also con ibu ed o he amous Kaldo
memo ial con e ence in New Yo k (Hagemann 1991).
Wha ole did Ge man economis s play in shaping you app oach o capi al accumula ion and
echnical p og ess?
Apa om he Kaldo –Pasine i wo k on income dis ibu ion in he 1950s and 1960s,
I go also in e es ed – including an elemen o local pa io ism – in he wo k by Adolph
Lowe, Hans Neisse and Ge ha d Colm, who we e in Kiel be ween 1926 and 1933, as
well as Jacob Ma schak and Wassily Leon ie , who also we e he e o some yea s. Bu all
o hem we e Jews and social democ a s, and he e o e none o hem could s ay a e he
Nazis ose o powe (Hagemann 2021). They had e y ad anced ideas wi h one main di -
e ence compa ed o Keynes and no mal Keynesianism, which in luenced my wo k, oo,
namely, he wo opics o capi al accumula ion and echnical p og ess ha a e s ongly
in e ela ed. This is a Ge man adi ion da ing back o Ka l Ma x, bu i was also impo -
an o Joseph Schumpe e ’s esea ch p og amme, who emphasised he in luence o ech-
nical p og ess on he long- un wa elike mo emen o capi alis economies (Hagemann
2015; Dal Pon Leg and and Hagemann 2017). These elemen s we e always he e in my
wo k, in pa icula he employmen consequences o echnological change, s a ing wi h
Rica do’s machine y p oblem (Hagemann 2008). I is also linked wi h my wo k on he
emig a ion o Ge man-speaking economis s. This led me o wo in e na ional places, o
Camb idge, UK, because o he Keynes, S a a, Kaldo and Pasine i adi ion, and o
he New School o Social Resea ch in New Yo k, whe e he Uni e si y in Exile, he la e
In e iew wi h Ha ald Hagemann 291
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G adua e Facul y, was ounded in summe 1933, as a hos o Ge man and Eu opean
émig é economis s and o he social scien is s.
You ha e buil up a speci ic ela ionship wi h Adolph Lowe. How would you b ie ly explain his
con ibu ion? Wha is special in Lowe’s wo k?
O e all, Lowe’s wo k is in eg a ed in he social sciences so ha Kenne h Boulding (1965),
when he e iewed Lowe’s (1965) opus magnum On Economic Knowledge, was calling him
an ‘economic philosophe ’. He e I ha e o ocus on economics. Lowe became he ound-
ing di ec o o he new depa men o esea ch on business cycles in Ap il 1926 a he
Kiel Ins i u e. A ha ime all o e in Eu ope, esea ch ins i u es on business cycles we e
ounded acco ding o he Ha a d model o 1917 and he Na ional Bu eau o Economic
Resea ch, ounded in 1920 wi h Wesley Mi chell as di ec o in he i s decade. Lowe’s
habili a ion hesis was a long essay, a ousing in e es again in he mode n deba es when
equilib ium business cycle heo ies came up by Lucas and o he s in he 1970s, because
Lowe challenged he idea ha you could analyse cyclical luc ua ions, an essen ially
dynamic phenomenon, on he basis o he dominan equilib ium app oach in economics.
This was he cen al ques ion in his habili a ion essay: ‘How is business cycle heo y pos-
sible a all?’ (Lowe 1926 [1997]).
A e you PhD in Kiel, and a yea a he F ee Uni e si y o Be lin 1980/1981, you mo ed on
o B emen in Janua y 1982 o become a p o esso in he economics depa men and o con inue
you collabo a ion wi h Heinz Ku z, and hen also wi h Pe e Kalmbach and a couple o o he
people. Wha we e he main achie emen s, and why did you lea e B emen in 1988?
In B emen, we had a esea ch g oup o pos -Keynesian economic heo y and policy wi h
a discussion pape se ies and equen isi ing lec u e s. The e we e i e membe s, besides
me: Heinz Ku z, Pe e Kalmbach, O o S eige and Ge ha d Lei häuse . Pe e had w i en
an excellen hesis on ‘G ow h and dis ibu ion in a neoclassical and pos -Keynesian pe -
spec i e’ (Kalmbach 1972). O o was he las economis a a Swedish uni e si y (Uppsala)
who w o e his PhD hesis on he S ockholm School in Ge man in 1970. O o had e y
good con ac s o Be il Ohlin and o he widow o E ik Lindahl. In 1986, we o ganised an
in e na ional con e ence on ‘Keynes’ Gene al Theo y a e 50 yea s’. Ge ha d Lei häuse
had close con ac s o he F ench Regula ion School, om whe e Robe Boye and Pascal
Pe i came o B emen, and we had discussions wi h hem.
We we e wo king ha d in he esea ch g oup wi h he bes PhD s uden s and ma u e
diploma s uden s h ough books like Luigi Pasine i’s (1981) S uc u al Change and
Economic G ow h o Vic o ia Chick’s (1983) Mac oeconomics a e Keynes. We had many
o eign isi o s o B emen, like Sidney Wein aub, Hyman Minsky, Sheila Dow, Philip
A es is, Ma c La oie, Axel Leijonhu ud, Augus o G aziani and se e al o he s, all o hem
leading in e na ional schola s in a Keynesian o pos -Keynesian di ec ion. The con ac s
o Camb idge, which Heinz Ku z and I al eady es ablished in he 1970s in Kiel, we e
en o ced in ou B emen pe iod. Amongs se e al o he s, such as Se gio Pa inello, Ian
S eedman o Ne i Sal ado i, we had pe sonal con ac s wi h Pie o Ga egnani, who passed
o wa d he ole o edi ing S a a’s pape s o Heinz, and whose 1958 Camb idge PhD he-
sis ‘A P oblem in he Theo y o Dis ibu ion om Rica do o Wicksell’, oge he wi h his
o he main publica ions, we ecen ly published o he i s ime in he Sp inge S udies in
he His o y o Economic Though (Ga egnani 2025), o which I am a managing edi o .
In he B emen pe iod, we eno mously in ensi ied ou close coope a ion wi h he New
School o Social Resea ch in New Yo k, wi h he exchange o p o esso s and s uden s.
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I hink he wo o you (Eckha d Hein and Hagen K äme ) wen o New Yo k in he
second yea 1988/1989 o he s uden exchange p og am ha as a Dean I had nego ia ed
wi h he New School and he Ge man Academic Exchange Se ice (DAAD).
Yes, ha is ue, and we bo h bene i ed om his eno mously in ou academic ca ee s.
Two yea s be o e he s uden exchange s a ed, we had al eady managed an exchange o
p o esso s o one semes e . In 1985, Heinz Ku z, wi h Die e Ka e mann as a PhD s u-
den , mo ed o he New School in Sp ing, and Ed Nell came in he summe semes e wi h
Ray Majewski o B emen. In he ollowing yea , I was a Fulb igh Visi ing P o esso a he
New School in he sp ing semes e 1986, and Ch is o Ruehl as a PhD s uden wen wi h
me. In he summe semes e , Willi Semmle came o B emen.
You coope a ion wi h he New School was mean o be ins i u ionalised in esea ch wi h he
ounda ion o an Adolph-Lowe-Ins i u e, as a cen e o pos -Keynesian economics in Ge many.
Why did his ail? Wi h hindsigh , did you miss a big chance, and did you no y ha d enough?
No, we ied e y ha d. I was no ou aul ha i was no ins i u ionalised, because we
had a e y good ini ial memo andum o he ounda ion o he Ins i u e. I was all planned
in de ails wi h ou di ec o s, wo on he New Yo k side, Ed Nell and Robe Heilb one a
ha ime, and wo in B emen, Heinz Ku z and me, bu he e we e basically wo main ea-
sons why i did no ma e ialise. One was he inancial p oblem. I was a main p oblem in
B emen, which was almos bank up due o he ecession a e he second oil p ice shock.
The New School in New Yo k always had inancial di icul ies. The second eason was a
poli ical one. Ronald Reagan was P esiden in he Uni ed S a es a ha ime, so he e was
no chance o ge poli ical backing. This was a g ea e p oblem on he Ame ican side han
on he Ge man side. Bu inancially, i was a main p oblem on bo h sides.
B emen is one o he examples o he ailu e o a mo e o less ully he e odox economics depa -
men in Ge many. You le o S u ga in sp ing 1988, Heinz Ku z le o G az sligh ly be o e
you, o he s emained, and when hey e i ed, nobody was eplaced. Wha in you iew was he
main cause o his ailu e? Why is i ha B emen was los as a place o he e odox economics
mo e gene ally, no only o pos -Keynesian economics?
I mus say i was no my o iginal in en ion o lea e B emen, bu he e we e se e al e en s.
One main p oblem came up a e O o Rolo , who had he chai o public inance, le
o Wuppe al. We had a majo con o e sy he ea e , and his e ealed basically h ee
p oblems. Fi s , he e was no backing on he poli ical side om he B emen Sena e o he
kind o economics we we e doing. Second, he e was he dominance o mo e igh -wing
people in managemen s udies. The e we e wo o h ee colleagues in managemen who
we e qui e okay, bu o he s we e second o hi d class, and s a ed in igues o shi he
p o esso ship o Ma ke ing. They we e no success ul wi h his in en ion, bu he p o es-
so ship was cancelled. This was a g ea pi y because we could ha e appoin ed one o he
leading colleagues in public inance a ha ime. Thi d, he economics depa men was
oo he e odox in i s composi ion. In pa icula , we had some mo e medioc e people in
economics, who did no mee highe s anda ds. So, you would ha e had o in es some
money o new appoin men s o make i an in e na ional cen e. Bu hese unds we e no
a ailable in B emen, o poli ical and public inance easons. O e all, i was a pi y, because
we had in e na ional con ac s, no only o Camb idge and he New School bu also o
I aly, F ance and many o he coun ies.
In e iew wi h Ha ald Hagemann 293
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Wha was you main esea ch while you we e based in B emen?
Ou main esea ch, also in he pos -Keynesian g oup, was on s uc u al change and
economic g ow h, pa icula ly he analysis o he employmen consequences o new ech-
nologies. Wha oday is he digi al e olu ion, a ha ime i we e he indus ial obo s,
which s a ed o be in oduced in he mid-1970s in he au omobile indus y and else-
whe e. We had he unding o 600,000 Ge man ma ks om he Volkswagen Founda ion,
which was a lo o money a he ime, in pa icula o B emen, o doing esea ch wo k on
he employmen consequences o new echnologies. We also had excellen con ac s wi h
he Leon ie g oup in New Yo k ha did he main s udy The Fu u e Impac o Au oma ion
on Wo ke s (Leon ie and Duchin 1986), based on an inno a i e dynamic inpu –ou pu
model, o he US economy. So, his was my main opic no only in he 1980s bu also in
he pos -Keynesian g oup, on op o he wo k on Keynesian economics mo e gene ally.
Fu he mo e, he e was ano he kind o a e se om Kiel o B emen. In my las wo
yea s in Kiel, I was in ol ed in a p ojec on Keynesian economic policies in Sweden,
inanced by he Ge man Resea ch Founda ion (DFG). Sweden was hen conside ed a
kind o p o o ype o Keynesian policies, bu he Swedes could igh ly say hey had hei
own adi ion o Wicksell, Ohlin, Lundbe g and many o he s o his kind o policy. This
esea ch in e es b ough me oge he wi h Hans-Michael T au wein, who a ha ime
was an ex e nal PhD s uden . He did his wo k on he Employee Funds in Sweden and
on Swedish economic policies, and I became he second supe iso o his disse a ion. I
esul ed in a long- un collabo a ion and iendship, as exp essed in he ac ual Fes sch i
Wa ing he Swedish Flag in Economics (Dal Pon Leg and and Hagemann 2025).
Then you mo ed on o Hohenheim in 1988 and he e you esea ch on emig a ion o Ge man
economis s s a ed?
Yes, his basically s a ed jus a e I le B emen, because be ween 1989 and 1994, oge he
wi h Claus-Die e K ohn, we had inancial suppo om he DFG o a elling o he
Uni ed S a es o do a chi e wo k. This p ojec on he emig a ion o Ge man-speaking
economis s in he Nazi pe iod hence u ned o one o my main esea ch opics in he
1990s and in he 2000s (Hagemann and K ohn 1999; Hagemann 2007; 2011). The
main opics o he émig és I esea ched we e on echnological change and employmen .
Besides Lowe (1976), he e was also Neisse , who published a leading a icle on ‘pe ma-
nen ’ echnological unemploymen in he Ame ican Economic Re iew (Neisse 1942). In
ac , he esea ch wo k on capi al accumula ion, echnical p og ess and he employmen
consequences o new echnologies was a main eason why I came o disco e he wo k o
he Ge man-speaking émig é economis s. So hese wo s ands o my esea ch a e closely
linked.
Bu we assume ha you also con inued you in e na ional ne wo king in ha pe iod.
Yes, om he ea ly 1990s o he mid-2000s, I was also one o he managing edi o s o
he new jou nal S uc u al Change and Economic Dynamics. Fu he mo e, om 1995 o
1997, we we e inanced by he Eu opean Union o a PhD semina on s uc u al change
and economic dynamics ha ook place in Camb idge, whe e I closely coope a ed wi h
Michael Landesmann, Albe S eenge om Enschede, and Faye Duchin who was un-
ning he Leon ie Ins i u e o Economic Analysis in New Yo k. The e was also Robe o
Scazzie i om Bologna, whe e I spen h ee mon hs in 1996 as an E asmus isi ing p o-
esso . Luigi Pasine i and Richa d A ena om Nice we e egula a endan s. Some o he
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pa icipa ing colleagues we e also key pe sons in he so-called ‘Weal h o Na ions S udy
G oup’. The e we e Mau o Ba anzini, Fe dinando Meacci, Pie -Luigi Po a and Robe o
Scazzie i, who also had e y good ela ions wi h Pasine i. One ou come o hese collab-
o a ions is he h ee- olume collec ion The Economics o S uc u al Change (Hagemann
e al. 2003).
Ea lie , in 1989/1990, I had spen a sabba ical in Camb idge, when I was a isi ing
p o esso a he Depa men o Economics and a Cla e Hall. In ha ime, I in ensi ied
my coope a ion and iendship wi h many o he mo e Keynesian o pos -Keynesian econ-
omis s in he UK, like Philip A es is, Vicky Chick, Malcolm Sawye and Geo Ha cou ,
wi h whom and his wi e Joan I al eady had isi ed he Be lin Wall in win e 1980/1981
when I was subs i u ing he p o esso ship o poli ical economics and economic heo y
a he F ee Uni e si y o Be lin. As is well known, Geo was he ‘champion o he social
oom’ in Camb idge. He was he only one who knew e e ybody and who in oduced
you o James Meade, F ank Hahn and many o he s. When I a i ed in Camb idge in
Sep embe 1989, he in oduced me o Keynes’s niece, Polly Hill, and Al ed Ma shall’s
g and-niece, Philomena Guillebaud, wi hin a week. Geo was a kind o spide in he
web, connec ing people. He su ely was qui e impo an o he ne wo king o he e odox
economis s.
A i Cohen om To on o was ou di ec neighbou wi h his amily a Cla e Hall. We
became close iends, and oge he wi h Geo and Oma Hamouda, we wen by ca o
he Hicks memo ial in Ox o d in Oc obe 1989 (Hagemann 1994; 2018), and sho ly
a e wa ds wi h Geo and Philomena Guillebaud o he nin h Keynes semina ‘Keynes as
Philosophe -economis ’ held a he Uni e si y o Ken a Can e bu y, o ganised so well
by Tony Thi lwall a Keynes College o many yea s. I also spen a whole day wi h he
wonde ul Hans Singe a he Ins i u e o De elopmen S udies in B igh on. When I
o ganised an in e na ional con e ence on he emig a ion o economis s in he Nazi pe iod
a Hohenheim Uni e si y in 1991, Singe ga e a highly s imula ing opening keyno e on
he in luence o Keynes and Schumpe e on his wo k as a de elopmen economis .
Le us come back o you esea ch jou ney. You s a ed wi h capi al heo y and hen wen on
o s uc u al change and unemploymen , which was hen also he link wi h you esea ch on
Ge man-speaking émig é economis s. Today, you main esea ch a ea is he his o y o economic
hough , igh ?
No ully. O cou se, he imp ession is no w ong, bu I would no go as a as F ank
Hahn, o example. He isi ed he p e-con e ence o he ounda ion o he Eu opean
Socie y o he His o y o Economic Though , o ganised by Ca lo Zappia in Siena in
Sep embe 1995. I had he chai in he i s session whe e F ank Hahn s a ed his alk on
he his o y o gene al equilib ium heo y wi h he sen ence, ‘Now ha I’m ge ing old,
I’m doing his o y o economic hough ’, which is a kind o denig a ion o his o y o eco-
nomic hough . Al hough I mus con ess, when you look a my publica ions, he numbe
o equa ions has dec eased o e ime. My pape s a e less echnical han in he ea ly yea s
when I was dealing wi h no only capi al heo y bu also s uc u al change o a e se
analysis (Hagemann 1990; 1992) whe e you ha e many equa ions, o he wise you canno
deal wi h hese opics. Bu I ha e always had an open-minded ela ionship wi h he use o
ma hema ics in economics. I depends on he opics you a e analysing, and he e a e some
opics which you canno analyse wi hou using ma hema ics.
I you look a my wo k in he his o y o economic hough , hen you will ecognise
ha a g ea pa o i is linked o p oblems ha also ha e an ac ual ele ance, such as he
employmen consequences o new echnologies (Hagemann 2012b) o issues o g ow h,
In e iew wi h Ha ald Hagemann 295
Jou nal compila ion © 2025 Edwa d Elga Publishing L d© 2025 The Au ho
s uc u al change and cyclical luc ua ions. Un o una ely, he p oblem o e ugee schola -
ship is back on he s age again in many coun ies. Wi h Will Milbe g, he long- ime Dean
o he New School, in 2017, I co-edi ed a special issue o Social Resea ch, o which I con-
ibu ed an essay on F anco Modigliani, he 1985 Nobel Lau ea e, who go his PhD om
he New School in 1944, wi h Ma schak and Lowe as his supe iso s (Hagemann 2017).
Le us come o he inal ques ions: Wha , in you iew, a e he cu en main challenges we a e
acing as (he e odox) economis s? And wha a e you ecommenda ions o he younge gene a-
ion o economis s?
Coming o you i s ques ion, I hink he e is a g ea geopoli ical unce ain y a he
momen , no only ade wa s, o issues ela ed o he T ump adminis a ion. Whe e his
will end, I hink, is oo di icul o p edic now. Mo e han 15 yea s ago, 2007–2009,
we had he Global Financial C isis and he G ea Recession. Such a inancial c isis, I am
ela i ely su e, will come back one day, hope ully la e han soone and less shocking.
So o know a bi mo e in some de ails abou he main easons o he inancial c isis is
always a good poin o s uden s o s udy. And I emembe ha in he yea s 2008 o
2012–2013, he e was a s ong demand by s uden s, when hey had o op o hei hesis
o he diploma, bachelo o mas e deg ee, o compa e he G ea Recession wi h he G ea
Dep ession. Wha a e he di e ences, wha a e he simila i ies in hese c ises? So s udying
pas c ises can be e y impo an . No only he geopoli ical ques ion oday indica es ha
i is no enough o do aining in highly demanding ma hema ical economic modelling
o econome ics o become a good economis . I always liked he quo a ion om Keynes
in his obi ua y essay on Al ed Ma shall, whe e he a gues ‘ ha he mas e -economis mus
possess a a e combina ion o gi s. He mus each a high s anda d in se e al di e en
di ec ions and mus combine alen s no o en ound oge he . He mus be ma hema i-
cian, his o ian, s a esman, philosophe – in some deg ee. … He mus s udy he p esen in
he ligh o he pas o he pu pose o he u u e’ (Keynes 1924 [1972]: 173–174).
Thank you e y much, Ha ald, o his in e es ing in e iew.
This in e iew was conduc ed online by Eckha d Hein and Hagen K äme in Ma ch 2025. We
hank Leo P ima esi, Be lin School o Economics and Law, o he ansc ip ion.
SELECTED PUBLICATIONS OF HARALD HAGEMANN
Dal Pon Leg and, M., Hagemann, H. (2017): Do p oduc i e ecessions show he ecupe a i e
powe s o capi alism? Schumpe e ’s analysis o he cleansing e ec , in: Jou nal o Economic
Pe spec i es, 31(1), 245–256.
Dal Pon Leg and, M., Hagemann, H. (eds) (2025): Wa ing he Swedish Flag in Economics. Fes sch i
o Hans-Michael T au wein, Cham, CH: Sp inge .
Dimand, R.W., Hagemann, H. (eds) (2019): The Elga Companion o John Mayna d Keynes,
Chel enham, UK and No hamp on, MA, USA: Edwa d Elga Publishing.
Hagemann, H. (1977): Ra e o Re u n und P o i a e: eine kapi al heo e ische Kon o e se zwischen
Neoklassike n und Pos keynesiane n im Rahmen de Camb idge-Deba e, Meisenheim: An on
Hain.
Hagemann, H. (1990): The s uc u al heo y o economic g ow h, in: Ba anzini, M., Scazzie i, R.
(eds), The Economic Theo y o S uc u e and Change, Camb idge: Camb idge Uni e si y P ess,
144–171.
296
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© 2025 The Au ho
Eu opean Jou nal o Economics and Economic Policies: In e en ion, Vol. 22 No. 3
Hagemann, H. (1991): A Kaldo ian sa ing unc ion in a wo sec o al linea model, in: Nell, E.J.,
Semmle , W. (eds), Nicholas Kaldo and Mains eam Economics. Con on a ion o Con e gence?,
London: Macmillan, 449–468.
Hagemann, H. (1992): T a e se analysis in a pos classical model, in: Hale i, J., Laibman, D.,
Nell, E.J. (eds), Beyond he S eady S a e. A Re i al o G ow h Theo y, London: Macmillan,
235–263.
Hagemann, H. (1994): Employmen and machine y, in: Hagemann, H., Hamouda, O.F. (eds), The
Legacy o Hicks, London: Rou ledge, 200–224.
Hagemann, H. (2007): Ge man-speaking economis s in B i ish Exile 1933-1945, in: Banca
Nazionale del La o o Qua e ly Re iew, 60(242), 323–363.
Hagemann, H. (2008): Capi al, g ow h, and p oduc ion disequilib ia: on he employmen conse-
quences o new echnologies, in: Scazzie i, R., Sen, A.K. Zamagni, S. (eds), Ma ke s, Money
and Capi al. Hicksian Economics o he 21s Cen u y, Camb idge: Camb idge Uni e si y P ess,
346–366.
Hagemann, H. (2011): Eu opean émig és and he ‘Ame icaniza ion’ o economics, in: The Eu opean
Jou nal o he His o y o Economic Though , 18(5), 643–671.
Hagemann, H. (2012a): S a a a Kiel, in: Geh ke, C., Sal ado i, N., S eedman, I., S u n, R. (eds),
Classical Poli ical Economy and Mode n Theo y: Essays in Honou o Heinz Ku z, London, New
Yo k: Rou ledge.
Hagemann, H. (2012b): Luigi Pasine i’s s uc u al economic dynamics and he employmen conse-
quences o new echnologies, in: A ena, R., Po a, P.L. (eds), S uc u al Dynamics and Economic
G ow h, Camb idge: Camb idge Uni e si y P ess, 204–217.
Hagemann, H. (2015): Capi alis de elopmen , inno a ions, business cycles and unemploymen :
Joseph Alois Schumpe e and Emil Hans Lede e , in: Jou nal o E olu iona y Economics, 25(1),
117–131.
Hagemann, H. (2017): F anco Modigliani as “Ame ican” Keynesian. How he uni e si y in
exile economis s in luenced economics, in: Social Resea ch: An In e na ional Qua e ly, 84(4),
955–985.
Hagemann, H. (2018): John R. Hicks (1904-1989), in: Co d, R.A. (ed), The Palg a e Companion
o LSE Economics, London: Palg a e Macmillan, 431–461.
Hagemann, H. (2021): The o ma ion o esea ch ins i u es on business cycles in he in e wa
pe iod. The ‘Kiel School’ and (in) olun a y in e na ionaliza ion, in: Mendes Cunha, A.,
Sup inyak, C.E. (eds), Poli ical Economy and In e na ional O de in In e wa Eu ope, London:
Palg a e Macmillan, 361–382.
Hagemann, H., K ohn, C.-D. (eds) (1999): Biog aphisches Handbuch de deu schsp achigen
wi scha swissenscha lichen Emig a ion nach 1933, 2 ols, Munich: K.G. Sau .
Hagemann, H., Landesmann, M., Scazzie i, R. (eds) (2003): The Economics o S uc u al Change,
3 ols, Chel enham, UK and No hamp on, MA, USA: Edwa d Elga Publishing.
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