The politics of the makeshift city: materiality, symbolic boundaries, and social relations in squatter settlements in Latin America1 Interview with María José Álvarez Rivadulla, Universidad de los Andes, Colombia

The poli ics o he makeshi ci y: ma e iali y, symbolic bounda ies, and social ela ions in squa e se lemen s in La in Ame ica1 In e iew wi h Ma ía José Ál a ez Ri adulla, Uni e sidad de los Andes, Colombia Pe ašá Pe Vašá (PV): Ma ia, i s o all, hank you o mee ing wi h me. Fo ou in e iew, Iha e p epa ed ques ions spanning om in o mal u banism o building echniques o poli ics. Some o hese ques ions a e mo e ela ed o esea ch, while some a e mo e abou u ban de- elopmen . Howe e , le ’s s a wi h you beginnings. Iha e disco e ed ha you s a ed o s udy in o mal u banism in Mon e ideo in he 90s, 1997 o be exac , which is ap e y long ime ago. So, how did i all begin? Why did you s a s udying in o mal u banism? Ma ía José Ál a ez Ri adulla (MJAR): Iwas s udying Social Wo k a he ime, and we had o conduc ieldwo k in ag oup o squa e se lemen s ha had jus been o med and which we e jus beginning o eme ge. We s a ed in h ee neighbo hoods. Iwas aking classes bo h in Social wo k and Sociology a he ime and couldn’ make up my mind be ween he wo. Iliked Social Wo k mo e because we did much mo e ieldwo k. So Is a ed going o hese neighbo hoods and i imp essed me ha people said, “Oh, we can call he Mayo .” They also had jo ings in no ebooks om neighbo - hood associa ions’ mee ings, whe e hey had e e yone’s cell phone lis ed, e en poli i- cians’, and Iwonde ed how i was possible ha hey had di ec con ac o poli icians. I su p ised me a he ime and hen I ealized how impo an i is. Du ing ha ield- wo k, he i s hing we did was map he neighbo hood his o y o hese h ee di - e en squa e se lemen s. One was mo e planned, mo e on he le o he poli ical spec um o ganized by ag oup o young ana chis s and o he poli ically engaged in- di iduals. The o he wo had ies o he o he wo poli ical pa ies in U uguay. Idid my unde g adua e hesis on hese se lemen s, bu Iwas mo e ocused on hei po e y, no on hei poli ics. Then Imo ed o Pi sbu gh o my PhD and nobody in Sociology a he ime was wo king on La in Ame ica o u ban issues. PV: Really? Tha su p ises me… MJAR: Bu he e was an amazing poli ical sociologis , John Ma ko , who became my ad iso . Wi h John and eading alo abou social mo emen s, Is a ed o examine 1 The e m makeshi ci y is bo owed om Alexande Vasu edan (2015, p. 347) o whom i “places pa icula emphasis on he dense ma ix o p ac ices ha a e cen al o how squa- ed spaces and communi ies a e pieced oge he , secu ed and li ed.” OPEN ACCESS 102 STUDIA ETHNOLOGICA PRAGENSIA 1/2020 mo e hese con ac s be ween poli icians and squa e s and hei ela ionships wi h o ms o collec i e ac ion in squa e se lemen s.2 PV: And hese a e also he issues you deal wi h in you ecen ly published book, Squa e s and he Poli ics o Ma ginali y in U uguay.3 Basically, i you could ame in a ew sen ences wha changed since hen because Iknow— and Iam skipping a ound ali le bi now— in you book you o e amul ilaye ed depic ion o neighbo hood change, desc ibing how some kids go in o d ugs, guns, e ce e a. So basically, wha has changed since he ime when you ini ially s a ed you esea ch? MJAR: Deindus ializa ion had ape asi e impac on he younge gene a ions li ing in squa e se lemen s and o he poo a eas. PV: Would you know he amoun o o eign di ec in es men (FDI) coming in o he coun y and possibly he amoun o sec o money? I is in e es ing because, ecen ly, Is udied he na- u e and ex en o land g abbing in La in Ame ica and i seems ha i is ahuge and complex p oblem nowadays, especially in B azil and U uguay. MJAR: Iam no an expe bu he e has been alo o o eign in es men in u al and u ban land since he 1980s and 90s when he economy opened up. Agood example is Pun a del Es e, he luxu y seaside eso in which basically ew U uguayans can ac u- ally spend hei aca ions. The e is e en aT ump Towe being buil . The e is an a - icle by Daniel Ren ew,4 an an h opologis , on his and he a gues ha Pun a del Es e is like aga ed own. I is also aghos own du ing he win e . Ru al land, in u n, is oday much mo e concen a ed and owned by o eigne s who in es in U uguay and ha e soy ields, ees o cellulose and o he o ms o ag oindus ies, e c. PV: So, wha changed in neighbo hoods since democ a iza ion and economic globaliza ion? MJAR: The mos impo an change has been he mush ooming o squa e se le- men s. The ci y did no expe ience popula ion g ow h, which is he main cause o squa e se lemen o ma ion elsewhe e. U uguay is 90% u ban since he 1960s and mos o i s u ban popula ion concen a es in Mon e ideo, he capi al ci y. Wi h an ea ly demog aphic ansi ion, he a e age e ili y a e is 1.6 child en pe woman, bu o cou se his a ies ac oss socioeconomic le els and a eas. So, wi hou popula ion g ow h, you ha e a ise o squa e se lemen s in he ci y. I s inhabi an s used o li e in he o mal ci y. They we e expelled om he ci y because hey could no pay en , hey couldn’ suppo hei amilies, and hey had no c edi o buy anew house in he ci y. The peak in he numbe o new squa e se lemen s was in he la e 80s and 90s, bu he e a e also some old ones in he ci y. The i s one I ound was om 1947. 2 John Ma ko is apoli ical sociologis (h p://www.sociology.pi .edu/pe son/john-ma - ko -phd). He w i es compa a i ely abou he ole o social mo emen s and he his o y o e olu ions and democ acy. 3 Ál a ez–Ri adulla, M.J. 2017. Squa e s and he poli ics o ma ginali y in U uguay. New Yo k: Palg a e Macmillan. 4 Ren ew, D. 2004. Pun a del es e as global ci y? Compe ing isions o U uguayan na ion- hood in ageog aphy o exclusion. Ci y & Socie y, 16(2): 11–33. OPEN ACCESS PETR AŠáT 103 While he olde ones a e mo e by acc e ion, he new ones end o be mo e planned. Some o hei leade s had expe iences in o mal wo k, unions, poli ical pa ies, he coope a i e housing mo emen and hey ans e ed ha o ganiza ional knowledge o u ban squa ing. The easons behind he peak a e economical and also poli ical, gi en ha he elec o al compe i ion o he o es o he u ban poo inc eased in he ci y a ound ha ime. Ido no see he same le el o o ganiza ion now. On he con- a y wha Isee oday is lack o oppo uni ies, especially o he you h g owing up in hose squa e se lemen s. The e a e no quali y jobs and he e a e ew educa ional oppo uni ies since s uden s a e expelled om seconda y educa ion. The d ug deal- ing ma ke is emp ing. PV: Mike Da is in his amous book, Plane o Slums (2006), desc ibes slums as a esul o he ans o ma ion o he global economy associa ed wi h he neolibe al e o ms ha ook place ac oss he globe a he u n o he 80s and 90s. Acco ding o Da is, hese changes pola ized socie ies and p oduced social inequali ies. Slums, as he ex eme ma e ializa ion o social inequali ies, a e acco ding o hese e ms a e lec ion o economic inequali ies. In you book, you we e c i ical o his na a i e. Howe e , isn’ wha you jus said ac ually an indica o ha in he 90s neolibe alism had ahuge impac on especially hese ypes o neighbo hoods? MJAR: Yes, his is pa ially ue. F agmen a ion is inc easing. Social in eg a ion is dec easing. Ye , i is also ue ha he e has been asigni ican inc ease in he num- be o people in he middle-income b acke o he las i een yea s, a leas un il he cu en ecessi e and pandemic si ua ion. Al hough I ind Mike Da is’ book in e es - ing ood o hough , I hink i doesn’ apply comple ely o wha happened in La in Ame ica in ecen yea s. Fo example, Iwould say ha THE u ban phenomenon in La in Ame ica in ecen yea s has no been he ise in squa e se lemen s ( ha in gene al happened be o e) bu he ise in p i a ized social housing.5 Simply pu , Iam no con inced by Da is’ na a i e o pola iza ion as alid o all places. PV: Isee. Speaking o class, you ha e w i en an in e es ing pape compa ing classes in U u- guay and Colombia. Could you elabo a e ali le mo e on he di e ences? Iha e no iced ha o be pa o he middle class in Colombia educa ion is e y impo an , speci ically ge ing an educa ion om p i a e uni e si ies. MJAR: And p i a e schools as well. Well, U uguay is much mo e egali a ian han Co- lombia. Colombia cu en ly is one o he mos unequal coun ies in he wo ld. So, o unde s and how his plays ou o e e yday people, he i s di e ence is ha in U u- guay you ha e alanguage o class— when you ask abou he school you wen o o he neighbo hood in which you li e, people say “amiddle class one”, wi hou being asked abou i . In Colombia, people a oid alking abou class; hey speak abou s a a, no abou classes. I is e y in e es ing because he s a a language is ap oduc o public 5 The e m “social housing” in La in Ame ica has asligh ly di e en meaning han in he Eu o-Ame ican con ex . Usually, social housing is a ype o housing ha is subsidized by go e nmen s; howe e , in La in Ame ica, i is p ima ily o pu chase as opposed o li ing in i me ely as a enan . As a esul , he eme gen middle classes li e in social housing be- cause hey a e he ones who ha e enough money o pay o i . OPEN ACCESS 104 STUDIA ETHNOLOGICA PRAGENSIA 1/2020 policy. S a a began as pa o ap og essi e policy measu e o classi y ci ies in o six socioeconomic g oups, so ha people in s a a ou , i e, and six would pay mo e o public se ices subsidizing he o he s a a. Bu people now say, o example, “Ili e in s a a wo, bu Iam om s a a h ee,” and so hey use i as alanguage o class. I you ask hem “Wha class do you hink you belong o?”, people ell you “well s a a wo o h ee.” I is e y in e es ing how apolicy became pa o people’s e e yday language and hough s. PV: Ano he one o you pape s was abou inequali ies ha a e being played ou a an eli e uni e si y.6 You desc ibed e y nicely in he in oduc o y igne e one gi l, om he lowe classes o s a a, ha go in o his eli e uni e si y and who wen o he classma es’ pa ies, whe e she no iced a ious symbolic ma ke s o he classma es om he uppe classes; o ex- ample, people om he no h o he ci y (uppe classes) use mo e amilia names o always ha e nice, clean hai . Can you elabo a e on his mo e? F om my own expe ience in Colom- bia, Icould lis se e al a ibu es h ough which Iam ypically able o ecognize he di e en classes. So, could you men ion mo e abou his a gumen on symbolic bounda ies? MJAR: As you know Iha e wo ked alo on u ban sociology, including esiden ial seg- ega ion. We know ha seg ega ion is bad o people because o he neighbo hood e ec s Idesc ibed be o e o he kids g owing up in squa e se lemen s in Mon- e ideo. Ye , he e is alo we s ill don’ know abou he mechanisms ha make he neighbo hood ma e . Why and in wha condi ions social mixing wo ks is s ill an empi ical ques ion. We don’ know wha he e ec s a e o , say, mo ing apoo pe son om apoo neighbo hood o amixed neighbo hood. I seems o ha e wo ked in di - e en ci ies, acco ding o he Mo ing o Oppo uni y p ojec o ins ance, bu we know li le abou his mixing and how i a ec s social in e ac ions. Simply placing apoo pe son in aneighbo hood ha is be e o , does no mean ha his pe son will ha e iends o e en alk o people ha a e be e o . This ellowship p og am ha Iam s udying, Se Pilo Paga, opened he doo o he bes uni e si ies in he coun y o poo s uden s, i hey excelled a hei high school lea ing s a e exam. Fo his, hey had o be ou s anding, gi en ha esul s in ha exam a e s ongly co ela ed o social class e lec ing deep educa ional inequali ies. Many en e ed eli e p i a e uni e si- ies, like he one in my s udy. Hence, he p og am is ana u al expe imen o obse e social in e ac ions ac oss classes in amixed con ex . The ques ions a e simila o he u ban ones, bu in an educa ional a he han aneighbo hood con ex . The p og am ga e condonable loans o s uden s o ou consecu i e yea s. PV: Fou yea s. And i is also widely c i icized, is ha igh ? MJAR: I has aced an immense amoun o c i icism. In such an unequal coun y as Colombia, public uni e si ies and ci izens c i icized ha mos o his public money was ending in p i a e ins i u ions. The p og am is o e now, in pa o his c i icism and in pa o alack o unding. 6 Ál a ez-Ri adulla, M.J. 2019. ¿”Los becados con los becados y los icos con los icos”? In- e acciones en e clases sociales dis in as en una uni e sidad de eli e. Desaca os59: 50–67. OPEN ACCESS PETR AŠáT 105 PV: So, how does he p og am ac ually wo k? Because Iha e me some people om public uni e si ies and hey we e kind o skep ical abou he p og am, jus as you a some poin s in you a icle imply ce ain skep icism. MJAR: Well, i depends on wha aspec s o he p og am you look a and wha you wan o ind. I you ask me abou he sys em o highe educa ion, his is jus ali le pa , i is no eally apolicy bu ap og am. I Iwas aminis e o educa ion, Iwould de o e money o public educa ion. Is udied a apublic uni e si y and Ibelie e ha i gua - an ees much mo e in eg a ion han p i a e uni e si ies. Ye , he majo i y o hese kids a e no able o en e public uni e si ies o di e en easons. To en e he bes public uni e si y, o ins ance, i is no me ely enough o pass you seconda y edu- ca ion exam wi h an excellen sco e, bu you also ha e o pass ano he exam, which is aba ie o many people because you ha e o pay o i and pass i . I is no alo o money o someone om he middle class, bu i de ini ely is o someone who is poo . You ha e o come o Bogo a o ake he exam and hen, i you ge in, you ha e o ha e money o be able o mo e o Bogo a, ega dless o he ac ha you ui ion is co e ed o e y low. You s ill ha e o be able o a o d li e in he ci y, so mos o hese kids do no end up aking pa in (a leas high quali y) highe public educa ion. So, public educa ion he e also has ba ie s and we keep losing alen , losing human capi- al because agood pa o hese kids a e no going o hese schools ei he . So, Iwould de o e money o public educa ion bu would c ea e special p og ams o include hese s uden s in public educa ion. Iam no an educa ion expe bu pe haps p i a e uni- e si ies can also help in inc easing access o high quali y educa ion. Wha Isee o- day in Colombia is amul i ude o p i a e low quali y ins i u ions ull o s uden s ha canno a o d o he p i a e uni e si ies o en e public ones. This has o change. Besides, as Isaid be o e, he e a e huge inequali ies o o igin by amily backg ound, egion and p ima y and seconda y educa ion. Those a e no co e ed by he p og am bu hey need o be add essed as well. . So, in sho , i depends on wha aspec s o he issue you look a . I you look a his p og am as apa o he educa ional sys em, i is jus asmall pa . I you look a i om he pe spec i e o he s uden s, hen you can see how i can change hei li es comple ely. Imean you a e gi ing hem aunique oppo uni y o uly h i e in hei s udies. I is jus now ha he i s coho o s uden s is g adua ing. I ’s uly ascina - ing. We need o s udy how hey do in hei adul li e. This does no mean ha social mobili y is easy. Iam also wo king on he hidden inju ies o class as well as on he hidden ba ie s o upwa d social mobili y. PV: To come back o in o mal u banism, he e is a end in La in Ame ica, bu also o he coun ies as well, ha slums, in asiones, a e ge ing mo e public a en ion and a e acing an in lux o ou ism and a e being “beau i ied.” We can see many echnological bu also a - is ic and design in e en ions in hese places. In Eu ope and he USA, u ban po e y was he subjec o social wel a e in he pas . Howe e , since he 90s, ci ies in he USA ha e been acing wel a e cu s. Eu ope is he same s o y. Ido no hink he same holds ue o Colombia o La in Ame ica. Howe e , many o hese in e en ions oday a e no unded by he s a e bu a he by he p i a e sec o . So, wha do you hink abou his dis inc ion— in e ening h ough an u ban-ma e ial nexus and h ough social wel a e ools? A e we wi nessing anew OPEN ACCESS 106 STUDIA ETHNOLOGICA PRAGENSIA 1/2020 policy on how o ackle u ban po e y? I so, how does an in e en ion ha is “design-based” and ou is -o ien ed ac ually wo k? MJAR: Well, he e is ce ainly some hing new o his “beau i ica ion” end sp ead- ing in Rio, Medellín, and many o he ci ies. The model is a elling. The e is ag ea book called Tou ing Po e y in which he B azilian schola Bianca F ei e-Medei os compa es Rio and Johannesbu g.7 The e is de ini ely some hing o i . Be o e, u ban au ho i ies wan ed o e ase po e y om ci ies a he han doing some hing o ad- d ess i o add ess i bu eloca e i making i in isible. I seems ou ism has been ans o ming his, ans o ming u ban po e y in o acul u al hing ha you can sell, al hough his can be in e p e ed in many ways. When Iwen o Soacha wi h Diana Boca ejo o do ieldwo k, on he one hand people we e like “we do wan o ha e aca- ble ca he e,” ye , on he o he hand, he e we e so many o he u gen hings o do, o example, hey did no ha e po able wa e in he houses.8 They hough i someone b ough acable ca in, i would make hem isible. Many people li ing in hese se - lemen s a e in isible and igno ed. Based on his, he expec a ion o ha ing ou is s o people coming in was some hing hey ecognized as posi i e. In hei minds, his was he expe ience o Medellín. These in e en ions ha e many di e en eadings and a e ull o con adic ions. In Rio and in Medellín, hese in e en ions we e connec ed o paci ica ion, wi h s a e iolence and human igh s iola ions. Now, Idon’ see hese in e en ions as asubs i u e o he wel a e s a e. In Co- lombia, I hink hey a e no subs i u ing any hing because he wel a e s a e o he excluded popula ions li ing in he in e ened comunas o Medellín was ne e s ong o begin wi h. I is simply s a e in e en ion in he a ea and, o cou se, people wel- come i because i is he s a e coming in, making hem isible. In coun ies ha ha e s onge wel a e p og ams, like U uguay o ins ance, hese in e en ions a e mo e complemen a y o wel a e, bu he e a e an asies ha hese u ban policies will make mi acles happen. Howe e , by me ely building apa k in aneighbo hood ha lacks employmen oppo uni ies and o he social policies, mi acles will no simply happen. Space is no enough. PV: Some imes, as a o eigne om a o ally di e en cul u al backg ound, i is di icul o me o ell when aplace is sa e o no . Fo example, Iwas a a amous ma ke close o Ma- ca ena once. The neighbo hood seemed ine, bu Iwas old no o walk om he main oad be- cause i is supposed o be e en mo e dange ous han common “no go” a eas in he ci y. Could you commen on his isual aspec o neighbo hoods? MJAR: When you asked wha changed in he neighbo hoods Is udied, Idid no men- ion one c ucial aspec and ha is d ugs. D ug dealing in hese squa e neighbo - hoods in Mon e ideo we e no e iden when Is a ed, ye now i is e y common and i has changed e e y hing in he neighbo hood. I means, when isi ing hese neigh- 7 F ei e-Medei os, Bianca. 2013. Tou ing Po e y. London & New Yo k: Rou ledge. 8 Ál a éz-Ri adulla, Ma ía José, & Boca ejo, Diana. 2014. Beau i ying he slum: cable ca e ishism in Cazucá, Colombia. In e na ional Jou nal o U ban and Regional Resea ch, 38(6): 2025–2041. OPEN ACCESS PETR AŠáT 107 bo hoods, you always ha e o go wi h alocal guide. He e in Colombia, Ialways ell my s uden s who go o ce ain neighbo hoods o do ieldwo k o call me when hey ge he e and when hey a e on hei way back. I is necessa y o be cau ious, bu no - mally he e a e good people who can ake you in. Howe e , i is di icul o ell wha is sa e, as hese ma ke s a e no isual; a he i is abou symbolic bounda ies and his was e en he case in 1997, when Is a ed my own esea ch. D ug dealing, o ins ance, is a e y unique issue, and i you c oss aline, you migh ge you sel in o ouble. So, yes, he e a e hidden ules which a e no isual; hey a e qui e in e nalized, so you canno see hem o hei limi s, and you canno see i e en he e [poin ing o aneigh- bo hood by he uni e si y]. The e was ahuge police ac ion o e he e his mo ning. They ook away six people, supposedly d ug deale s. They we e selling o s uden s om Los Andes and Rosa io, acco ding o he news.9 The u ban is o en ag adien , and he e is no sha p dis inc ion be ween asa e space and anon-sa e space. Plus, di - e en people eel sa e in di e en spaces. This is unny. When you ask people in Ca- zucá, aplace bogo anos ea , wha hey ea , hey ell you hey ea down own. PV: Speaking o socio-ma e ial dynamics, in you book you dis inguished be ween di e en ypes o squa ing. One is mo e symme ical and he o he in ol es mo e a ypical cons uc- ions and disposable ma e ials. Do hey ep esen he same building p ac ice, albei wi h wo di e en ypes o ma e ials, o a e hey a he wo di e en p ac ices ela ed o di e gen his o ies and makeshi poli ics? MJAR: Well, one ype is planned and he o he one occu s by acc e ion. Planned squa e s a e mo e poli ically ac i e and he design o he neighbo hood is made o be in eg a ed in o he ci y. Ag oup seizes aplo one day and hey plan he neighbo - hood, including he s ee s and he blocks. They claim o be pa o he ci y, and hey wan o be o icial, legal. They wan o ha e land i les and become owne s. They hink o hemsel es no as poo bu as wo king class and hey wan o be ecognized as such, so hey c ea e spa ial and social bounda ies wi h people ha li e in he neigh- bo hoods c ea ed by acc e ion. Acc e ion in he o m o in asions is an ou come o amilies a i ing o e yea s. These squa e se lemen s end o be inhabi ed by e en mo e des i u e popula ions. I is simply alas eso ype o housing. PV: Schola s om ama e ial s udies backg ound, o example Vic o Buchli, ha e been poin ing ou ha he social o ganiza ion o ma e ial o ms, om small hings in he home o la ge poli ical-economic ma e iali y, ha e an impac on social ela ions.10 Is he e any di e ence in social ela ions based on he ma e iali y o squa e se lemen s? MJAR: Acc e ion-based occupa ions a e less o ganized in e ms o neighbo hood as- socia ions. Planned land in asions o en ha e neighbo hood associa ions. They we e also p oude o hei neighbo hood and how much hey had achie ed. This was he main di e ence I ound be ween he wo di e en ypes. The e was amomen in his- o y, howe e , in which some acc e ion in asions mobilized ac oss se lemen s, o- wa ds he end o he U uguayan dic a o ship. In pa icula , a e y p og essi e p ies 9 Uni e sidad del Rosa io. 10 Buchli, Vic o . 2013. An an h opology o a chi ec u e. London: Bloomsbu y. OPEN ACCESS 108 STUDIA ETHNOLOGICA PRAGENSIA 1/2020 wen o li e in hese e y poo neighbo hoods and he helped build asense o digni y and collec i eness ha led hem o ahuge mobiliza ion in eac ion o displacemen . This was he ime o libe a ion heology and Ca holic Chu ch’s g ea in ol emen wi h he poo . He, and o he p ies s, oge he wi h ac i is s and p o essionals wo k- ing in NGOs ac ed as b oke s in squa e ’s mobiliza ion o link hem wi h esou ces. This pa icula p ies con ac ed he poo communi ies wi h ano he chu ch commu- ni y om a iche neighbo hood and hey dona ed money, so he squa e s could buy he land and hen build houses. I is no easy o c ea e his kind o o ganiza ion and each hese goals wi hou ab oke . PV: In Czechia, we ha e his speci ic cul u e called ku ils í in ol ing anumbe o DIY ac- i i ies e y impo an o Czech iden i y. Do people li ing in communas ha e some hing like ha , any pa icula cul u al ac i i ies, such as epai ing homes, making u ni u e, e c.? And is he e any di e ence in e ms o cons uc ion echniques? Do hey use any expe knowl- edge o is i mo e DYI-based? MJAR: This a ies coun y by coun y, bu he e is no pa icula ac i i y in gene al. Squa e s wo k in wha hey can, o en in he in o mal economy. Many women wo k as domes ic wo ke s, many men in cons uc ion. Bu he e a e also o mal wo ke s in low paid occupa ions om policemen o selle s. The e a e also small businesses bo h in people’s homes and ou side, in he s ee in he neighbo hood o ou side. Cons uc ion ma e ials a y alo ac oss ci ies bu hey also a y in he same ci y. In Mon e ideo, while planned in asions end o ha e b ick made houses, acc e ion in asions end o be made o disposable mo e p eca ious ma e ials. Squa e se le- men s in gene al a e sel -cons uc ed. In U uguay, i is common ha o he mos di - icul hings, o ins ance pu ing a oo on, you need an expe bu o en people in he neighbo hood wo k in cons uc ion. These people know how o build. They no mally do oo ing on Sundays because you ha e o do i in one day and alo o people coope - a e on i , so hey do i in his way like an o ganized g oup o sel -help. The owne o en o e s ood, aba becue o ins ance, o hose ha helped. I is amale hing. Speak- ing o cul u al ac i i ies, house building is an ongoing p ojec . One yea , you ha e only one oom, he nex yea you ha e wo, and hen la e you build asecond loo and g adually he house becomes nice . In some o he houses Iha e isi ed o e he yea s, he e is some hing new e e y ime. People a e also e y p oud o hei houses because i is he only hing hey ha e ha “belongs” o hem, so i is e y impo an as all o his building is hei main ac i i y. In acc e ion in asions, he e is ac ually an ac i i y ha iden i ies hem— sca enging— e en i no e e ybody does i . PV: Isee, so i seems o ha e mo e o acoping dimension o i . Howe e , wha abou ee ime? Do hey ha e any hobbies? MJAR: Yes, de ini ely. Yes, Imean you see people playing socce , you see people hang- ing a ound, d inking wi h hei iends and cha ing, al hough he e is alo o bo e- dom as well and no so much o do in hese neighbo hoods. Ican ecall an image o mysel one Sa u day a e noon in he middle o one o hese neighbo hoods in Mon- e ideo. Iwas si ing he e wai ing o some hing o happen and i go so bo ing. The e was no s o e Icould go o, o buy an apple o wha e e , nobody o cha wi h; i OPEN ACCESS PETR AŠáT 109 was an emp y public space and many o hese neighbo hoods a e like ha — hey a e e y bo ing places. In Colombia my expe ience is di e en . The e is always aneigh- bo hood bake y you can en e and ha e abee , an empanada o aco ee. PV: Tha ’s e y in e es ing. Iha e one las ques ion o you. I ead you pape on clien elism and i eminded me o he si ua ion ela ed o he pos -socialis con ex . The e is an asym- me ical di e ence in he concep ualiza ion o clien elism. To pu i b ie ly, when you sea ch o ajob in he US o Wes e n coun ies and a e ne wo king amongs connec ions, schola s concep ualize i as using “weak ies”; ye , i you sea ch o ajob in his way, o ins ance, in he Czech Republic o in o he pos -socialis coun ies, schola s end o concep ualize i as clien elism. I is basically he same hing, bu he e is asymme y in e ms o knowledge p o- duc ion. The la e e okes aso o sho age o ca ching up o Wes e n socie ies, as one uses connec ions in some subs anda d o old- ashioned way o ind ajob. MJAR: In many o he neighbo hoods Idid esea ch on in Mon e ideo he e we e ies o di e en poli ical pa ies. I is no necessa ily clien elism because in he U u- guayan poli ical sys em i is no ha easy o moni o who o ed o whom. Ye , he e is de ini ely an exchange o a o s o possible poli ical suppo . Squa e s use po- li ical ne wo ks as pa o hei su i al s a egies o ge goods and se ices o hei neighbo hoods, such as oad building. In some o he con ex s, exchanges a e mo e pe sonalized, like money o o es. People end o see clien elism as some hing bad, bu Isee i as asu i al s a egy like any o he . I you hink abou i , he ich also y o in luence poli icians and ha e links o hem. And ye , wha hey do is called lobby- ing, no clien elism. Ne wo ks a e impo an e e ywhe e and poo people ha e used hem o su i e— hey use amilial, iendship, and poli ical ne wo ks. PV: Ma ia, hank you, e e y hing ha you ha e men ioned oday is e y in e es ing and in- spi ing. Thank you e y much o he in e iew and you ime as well. OPEN ACCESS